The Council Room

[rdpierce]

I'm not sure what got me thinking about my Wyanoke days...it was a cold snowey afternoon here in Wisconsin and something got me wondering what Google would have to say about Wyanoke and here I am.....My dad went to camp back in the 30s ( Dad is 89 now, I wonder where that puts him in terms of being among Wyanokes oldest? )........my brother John,( four years my senior ) and I attended starting in about 1960.....I went from Midget ( Fred Lang was a cabin mate )to Senior and John's last season was as JA....I've been to camp a couple of times since...One fall around 1970 on a college road trip with a couple of classmates....we stopped at the fire station in Wolfboro and got the OK from the Fire Marshal to camp at Lands End...( not sure he had any right to be giving out such permission but we had a blast..)....In the late 80's I came through with my wife and wandered around a bit....so many memories......
1.I've got a million questions....! Why did it close? I suppose the economics of the thing must have been a factor but was there anything else to it?
2. The subsequent development of the property seems to have been pretty been sensitive.....surprising how much of the original infastructure is still in place.....what is done now with such things as the Chapel?
3. I remember leading the Greys on at least two failed races against the blues in those old war canoes....what has become of those leaky monsters?
4. Does the Bentley family still own any of the property? The two places down towards Carry beach in particular? I can remember a partcularly sudden storm that came up and how important I felt when Mr Brad Bentley picked on me to run down to the house and cover the power boat......I may be mistaken but I think in those days Mr Bs mother still lived in the original place at that end of camp......
Well that's enough for now..I'm looking forward to sharing some great memories...all the best, Richard Pierce

[Jim Culleton]

Hi Richard

Welcome to the Wyanoke website. Great to have you here! Lots of great memories that you will find among all of the posts and the picture albums!

The former "Midget Chapel" is now a house . . . . . . the original fireplace and chimney are still intact. There is a picture of it in the "Culleton Family" album in the Photos Section.

I have visited the former camp property a number of times and it's amazing how well the overall layout, some buildings, the Jr./Sr. ball field have been preserved. Even though the property is now comprised of single family homes one still gets a good sense of the "old Wyanoke" . . . the way it was back then. The Wolfeboro airport is now closed and the property is being developed with single family homes

Camps Belknap and Northwoods are still up and running. Not sure about William Lawrence and DeWitt.

More later!
_________________
'56 - J-9 J. Moulton
'57 - J-11 J. Moulton
'58 - J-4 E. Web Dann, S. Hood
'59 - S-6 P. Leavitt
'60 - S-2 F. Avantaggio
'61 - JA-1 RK Irons
'62 - C-9 JC with P. Freeland
'63 - C-1 JC with S. Borger
'64 - C-6 Councilor

[Jim Culleton]

Richard

Just as an aside I lived in and around Madison for 5 years (1970-75). Great and fun city for sure being a university town. First moved to an apartment in Sun Prairie, then built our first home in Fitchburg just off of Fish Hatchery Road. Daughter was born at Madison General in '74. Was also a "weekend warrior" in the Army Reserves at the 44th General Hospital complex in Madison. Not sure if it's still there.

Always loved the routy Badger Ice Hockey games, particularly against Notre Dame !
_________________
'56 - J-9 J. Moulton
'57 - J-11 J. Moulton
'58 - J-4 E. Web Dann, S. Hood
'59 - S-6 P. Leavitt
'60 - S-2 F. Avantaggio
'61 - JA-1 RK Irons
'62 - C-9 JC with P. Freeland
'63 - C-1 JC with S. Borger
'64 - C-6 Councilor

[DavidAyars]

Greetings, Richard! Nice to have you here.

Both Camp DeWitt, and Camp Kehonka (girls camp) closed over ten years ago, I believe. With high property values and taxes on Lake Winipesaukee, it's hard to imagine many private camps being able to make a go of it there any more. I mean, the land at peak a couple of years ago had to be worth ten times plus what it was worth back in the 1960s, and it was pretty valuable then. In New Hampshire, I believe localities raise money primarily with property taxes, and waterfront-view land is assessed aggressively now. Belknap is a YMCA camp, so I would guess they get a property tax break.

David Bentley, who still lives in Wolfeboro, will be along to give you more detail and likely a more accurate account than I can give, if they ever get power back there this winter after their ice storm last week. (I don't know that he lost power, but a lot of people in NH did.).

As I heard it, it wasn't that the camp was losing a lot of money that brought about its demise, though that might have certainly done it in by now. David Bentley's perspective may be different, but from what I've heard, Mr. Brad Bentley just felt it was time. The land was becoming more valuable for private development than for a summer camp, and he was at the point where he wanted to retire and enjoy the time left to him without having to worry about camp, so selling the land felt like the right thing to do to him, and who can blame him? A group of alumni and parents considered buying the camp in the winter of 1975-1976, but their budget couldn't come close to the developer's offer. They also considered reopening a "Camp Wyanoke" somewhere else, but there was much less enthusiasm for a new location. And that was it. It's not an uncommon scenario, when private summer camps close.

The main Chapel was also winterized and remodeled as a private residence. (Fortunately, the owners don't have to use the Senior Pines to take showers and all.) There's a thread or two already in the forum that discusses the remodeling of the Chapel and other development. The dining hall was torn down, as you probably remember, as well as the cabins and tent platforms and I think most of the other structures. Red Roof lived on but was sold, if I remember correctly. After Mr. Bentley passed away, Mrs. Edna Bentley lived her remaining years in a new house built on the Melanson's Beach property northwest of Carry Beach, and David and Sherry may live there now. Most of the other buildings (infirmary, etc.) were not as durable, large in the modern style, or otherwise valuable and potentially-residential a structure as the chapel(s) anyway. I know you are aware of this, Richard, since you've been back, but for the benefit of lurkers who don't know, other new homes were built on the hillsides along the camp shore. Images of what the property looks like now can be found here:
http://wyanoke.com/images/stngalry/Stngalry.htm
and many other photos from camp here:
http://www.wyanoke.com/gallery/index.php
and here:
http://wyanoke.com/pictures.htm

No, the local fire marshall likely did not have authority to issue you an informal camping permit circa 1970, but it was nice of him to give you the high sign! I wouldn't try this now, with or without his permission!

I personally have not been back to Wolfeboro since the close of camp, and if I did return, I would choose not to look upon the shore of our end of Winter Harbor or venture up the road past Carry Beach. I'm glad to hear that much of the property still looks like camp, but I prefer to remember it as it was. I can still see pipes and tree roots snaking through the junior camp and hear the ringing of voices of kids at play in my mind.
_________________
Camper: J-8 1965 (Kevin Ryan), J-8 1966 (Mike Freeland), S-6 1967 (Russ Hatch), S-3 1968 (Jeremy Cripps), and JA-2 1969 (Dan Mannis).
JC: J-2 1970 (Bill Bettison) and J-3 1971 (Gene Comella). Councilor 1972, J-5 1973, and JA-1 1974 & 1975

[rdpierce]

Thanks Jim and David for your replys.....it's an odd but really wonderful feeling to re-connect with this very special time in my life....Merry Christmas,Richard

[Mike Freeland]

Nicely put Dave.

From my own perspective, setting foot on the old Wyanoke property is an approach-avoidance nightmare -- I couldn't be that close and NOT go look.

My first time back was before the construction started, in July of 1980, a few weeks after my mother died. Everything was there, but dead, overgrown and irretrievable. It would never be Wyanoke again. I literally couldn't talk for an hour or so after we drove down the hill and across the Carry toward Wolfeboro. Except for a few weeks earlier, I'd never been so profoundly sad. I suppose reaction was the result of a combination of losses, but it's amazing what that piece of property and its citizens meant (and mean) to me.

As an aside here, I reversed the picture in the gallery Dave Bentley pointed out back in October as backward:

http://www.wyanoke.com/gallery/Freeland6869/rosette_aug

Dave Ayars, you're right about the flag, which is why I posted that shot the way it originally was, even thought it didn't feel right. However, W, Y and A are all bilaterally symmetrical, so the letters would be fine, even though WYANOKE is reversed. The N is now backward, but it never occurred to me that that flag has WYANOKE on both sides, like a transparency, so the name's forward from one side, backward from the other, just like the American flag on airplanes' vertical stabilizers. I never noticed that.

So after all that, the name Wyanoke is now on the correct side of the standard-bearers' crew shirts, JA 1 and 2 are correctly positioned, and Pat, who directed the cacophany ensemble at the time, is where he and his white-and-mustard-clad mugicians should be after a parade: close to the Little Guest House on the left.

Thanks for pointing that out Dave B. Sorry it took so long to notice your observation.

And finally, yes, welcome aboard Richard. A technical note: Your email doesn't seem to be working. Don't publish it here, but look in your profile and see if it makes sense to you. Or, send me a note at mike at wyanoke dot com and I'll take care of it. Addresses aren't available to anyone here, registered or not. This site uses your address to communicate but leaves it up to you to divulge it to your correspondents.

I'm currently here in Pennsylvania with Pat and his family for Christmas, so as long as I have the floor, Merry Christmas to all of you and your families. Thanks for sticking with us for so long and keeping this wonderful legacy alive.
_________________
'56-C-9 C. Mosher '57-C-9 Bill Feaster
'58-J-14 H. Peavy '59-J-11 G. Wood, C. Duncan
'60-S-8 R. Leavitt, D. Hemphill '61-S-1 E. Slocum
'62-JA-1 H. Dunbar '63-C-2 (JC)
'64-C-5, (JC) Councilor
'65-C-9 '66 - '72-J-8
'73-JA1 '75-J-6

[rdpierce]

Right you are...I dropped a letter off my profile email addres...correction has been made....RP

[David Bentley]

David Ayars is correct with his answer to you about Wyanoke closing. The cost of running a private, emphasis on private, independent summer camp became very burdensome. In New Hampshire the primary source of income for local towns is the property tax, and this is arrived at by a somewhat complicated formula, albeit, it is simplified down to the local tax rate times the assessed value of your home expressed in $1000.00 units, i.e., $100,00.00 equals one hundred units. As the value of waterfront land increased, so did the tax bill, and being a private, independent camp, there was no relief available. So, this was a major factor in the decision.

Also, insurance was another cost which just kept climbing, and there was no relief in this, either, neither based on experience or any other cultural factor. The camping industry (at the time) didn't have any substantitive guidelines for who does what with respect to activities or leadership. Therefore, even though Wyanoke tried very hard (and succeeded) to have qualified people in charge of activities not all camps were quite so careful. Because of this, the insurance industry used a very broad brush to decide how to handle camps insurance-wise. It didn't do Wyanoke any good in the eyes of the insurance company to say that Dr. Robert P. Fox (a nationally recognized player in the Red Cross) was in charge of the waterfront; or that R K Irons, a recognized scholar, was on the staff providing a stabilizing influence; or that councilors who were in charge of activities had had several years of experience in that area; or that we vigorously inforced safety at the rifle range and archery range; or that swimming was using the buddy system, no boating unless a boy could satisfactorily pass a swimming test. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Food costs became a major factor. Some of the changes in how food was served were undoubtedly for the better, but these added costs. We used to serve cold cereal in large boxes at each table - family style, but that had to change to individual boxes per serving. Milk was served in a 'community' pitcher for each table, but that had to change to individual drinkers. And the list goes on.

Salaries was NOT a player in the decision - after all, most men barely brought any money home after being a councilor for a summer. Making money was not the reason men took the job of being a councilor.

Enrollment was always a bit of a struggle, primarily because summer camp expenses were an 'extra' to a family's budget, and sometimes other needs just plain squeezed summer camp out.

Other social opportunities and obligations were competition for camps - summer school, visiting Aunt What's Her Name and Uncle Who, and the dreaded 10-day automobile trip to see the country. Because Wyanoke had a program based on an 8-week season, campers were encouraged to do the full eight weeks, however, over time, the 4-week session evolved in order to accommodate some of the above mentioned pressures.

But, all of the above having been said, and more could be added to it, David Ayars is very correct - sometimes an entity just completes its cycle and it is time to close down. Camp Wyanoke, as personified by the thousands of men and boys, and women, had a great run, and its time just cycled out. The spirit of Wyanoke is alive and well, thanks to efforts of Mike to get this website up and running, and to the people who spend time writing in to the site.

The ONLY legacy an institution has is its reputation, and Wyanoke had built a strong reputation through the years, thanks to the initial leadership of my grandfather and carried on by the father. The evolution of society brought changes in attitudes, changes in behavior, and challenges to traditions and mores, and, although some of this was good for the country, some was not. My father felt that Camp Wyanoke was at the top of its game, enjoyed a good run of 67 summers, and that its time had come.

Much to his delight and comfort, the developer who purchased the land was mindful of the history of the area and was careful about development. Trees and rocks familiar to all are still visible. Naturally, there had to be site work done to develope the land, but many landmarks are still there, slightly older (33 years), slightly more overgrown (lacking the 275 pairs of feets keeping the paths open), but nevertheless there.

This brought great comfort to my Dad during his too-short retirement (closed the Camp after the 1975 season and he passed away in the summer of 1982).

So, there you have it.
_________________
C-1 49 J-7 52 S-3 55 J-10 58
C-7 50 J-7 53 S-2 56 J-8 59
C-8 51 J-4 54 S-7 57 (JA) J-8 60 - 64
1965 - 1968 Military service
Pine Cone 68 - 75 (with wife,Sherry,
and daughter Tracey)
Wolfeboro - full-time since 1997

[DavidAyars]

Another insightful essay, David. Very interesting.

Evidently, the financial squeeze was growing tighter than I had realized. I knew it was a factor, but I saw the camp as fairly revenue neutral in the 1970s, and thought your dad's state of mind and where he was in his life were the primary factors in his decision. But expenses were likely rising faster than revenues in the 1970s. We sort of knew that at the time, and that was part of the motivation for the 6 week-2 week experiment; to try something different, as fewer families were willing to send boys for 8 weeks.

I don't doubt that your dad made the right call in closing camp no later than he did, because if they were issues then, the financial pressures from both property taxes on the lake and liability insurance on all private camps were to escalate steadily as the years went on after 1975. I think your dad would be astounded to see how expensive it would be to run a camp there now.
_________________
Camper: J-8 1965 (Kevin Ryan), J-8 1966 (Mike Freeland), S-6 1967 (Russ Hatch), S-3 1968 (Jeremy Cripps), and JA-2 1969 (Dan Mannis).
JC: J-2 1970 (Bill Bettison) and J-3 1971 (Gene Comella). Councilor 1972, J-5 1973, and JA-1 1974 & 1975

[rdpierce]

More great feedback.......much as I would have expected...I recently retired after 35 years in 'student activities' at Cornell University and the University of Wisconsin.....a career choice that I'm sure was much influenced by my Wyanoke experiences.....but the challenges of fullfilling a student leadership development mission objective in up to date facilites against constantly increasing fiscal pressures and ever changing social conditions are circumstances and I can certainly relate to....
I like the notion that Wyanoke went out at the top of its game and never was forced to become something it was never meant to be in order to simply survive.....
David B, it is sad to think that your dad's retirement was cut so short.....what year was he born? I always had the impression tha he and my dad were fairly contemporary but perhaps not...( dad was born in 1920)
I can certainly remember you as one of the 'cool older guys' that we junior /senior types really looked up to...I don't think we had much real one on one contact but you may have known my brother John....He was born in 1947.....he wore glasses and had a fairly pronounced stutter......he was terrific big brother but sadly was killed in a motorcycle accident 40+ years ago at age 21....

So I'm still curious as to what became of the all the 'stuff'....war canoes,rifles, tents etc,etc ...there must have been some sort of huge sale and I'm guessing much of it went to other camps...true?
Also can you fill me on what the relationship with between Wyanoke and Winnemont was all about...Was the Bentley family directly involved with the the girls camp or was that a pairing between to independent entities....? By the time I came to Wyanoke around 1960 there didn't seem to be much contact with Winnemont that I recall....but maybe back then I was just oblivious to girl stuff......RP

[Tom Shirley]

Dave, what you say here helps us to understand. Thank you. I am thankful that your father made the decision he did. I'm glad that the camp did not try to hang on forcing changes to the culture of the camp. It's helpful to me and I'm sure others to be able to look back with fond memories which I'm sure would be different if the decision was not made.

I was a second year JA in 1975 and like to think that I would have been invited back the next year if there was one. I recently found the letter that Dave Ayers wrote to my parents reporting my progress. It was very honest and pointed out several weaknesses that looking back I can see much more clearly now than I may have seen then.
_________________
J-1 1970, Marc Liddle from Scotland
J-1 1971, Bob Vaughn
S-3 1972, Steve McDavitt
S-2 1973, Charlie Thomas
JA-2 1974, Dan Mannis
JA-1 1975, Dave Ayers

Proud to be Gray

[Mike Freeland]

There was a little cluster of us who wanted to buy Wyanoke (not only the name, but the property, then the name only so we could set up at some other location. Right. That would be Wyanoke?) and keep the status quo. BMB wanted none of that, and of course we were stunned to be rebuffed.

Most of use were young and naive, and Dave's descriptions above of the factors which led to Wyanoke's closure tells me yet again that we would have probably painted ourselves in a horrible corner if we'd been allowed to proceed with the transition.

And really, who could have run Wyanoke better than the master? Brad knew the business of camping (we didn't -- being a councilor doesn't make you a camp director), and of course he knew Wyanoke itself pretty well too. He made it what we all remember today,with all due credit to his father, of course.

Whatever we thought could have been done better, probably couldn't have been, and our starry eyes didn't see the financial and emotional risks it would take to get the physical plant going enough to please the inspectors, the rising insurance and regulatory compliance costs, the erosion of enrollment, on and on.

If we had succeeded in taking over, Brad would never have enjoyed his brief retirement . He'd have felt the need to be mother hen (father rooster?) to his family's progeny and keep his finger on the pulse. That's no retirement. And for him to watch us flounder around trying not to ruin it would have been the last thing he needed. Nope. He did the right thing.

As tough as it was, I think it all turned out for the best. Not only that, we still have some damn fine memories and life-long friends because of it. I'm glad I was born early enough to have experienced it.
_________________
'56-C-9 C. Mosher '57-C-9 Bill Feaster
'58-J-14 H. Peavy '59-J-11 G. Wood, C. Duncan
'60-S-8 R. Leavitt, D. Hemphill '61-S-1 E. Slocum
'62-JA-1 H. Dunbar '63-C-2 (JC)
'64-C-5, (JC) Councilor
'65-C-9 '66 - '72-J-8
'73-JA1 '75-J-6

[rdpierce]

Ahhh the enthusiasims of youth........even in the early 60s I think there was a sense that the value of the property alone was fast becoming so great as to make a continuing camp operation if not totaly impractical certainly a major self sacrifice for the owners......To try and get into the camp business at that late date would have cost a fortune for sure and then trying to make a go of it with the inevitable debt burden would have almost certainly have been impossible.......not that one worries about those details when we're young....
No doubt there are still some private camps that are thriving but their properties must surely be paid for long ago....I wonder too if the remaining private camps aren't mostly extremely expensive and hence exclusive in a way that Wyanoke never seemed to be....and to remain viable don't you suppose the camp experience would have to had evolved tremendously from when we were boys....I mean the simple games and rather basic woods crafts etc that I loved have surely been replaced at today's camps by extreme activities...survival experienes,challenge courses,technical climbing,sail boarding,scuba.... etc,etc...and the role of technologyI bet the impact of all that has also changed the face of camp and the camper's experiences....If anyone had taken over Wyanoke would there have been the willingness to make the kinds of changes that the market and the changing times would demand ? If there had been that willingness what would the point have been? It wouldn't be the Wyanoke we had known........all in all the notion that Wyanoke had a very good run and it was simply time to bring down that curtain certainly makes sense to me...
I really appreciate this dialog......let's keep it going..Merry Christmas to all,RP

[DavidAyars]

Yeah, interesting, see now, I thought the buyout idea fell through mainly for financial reasons. I think that came from the letter that went out at the time from the "Friends of Camp Wyanoke" group, or whatever they called themselves, saying, we couldn't work it out money-wise, in my memory. Mike's perspective is more of a HELL NO not at any price. What he says makes sense, though.
_________________
Camper: J-8 1965 (Kevin Ryan), J-8 1966 (Mike Freeland), S-6 1967 (Russ Hatch), S-3 1968 (Jeremy Cripps), and JA-2 1969 (Dan Mannis).
JC: J-2 1970 (Bill Bettison) and J-3 1971 (Gene Comella). Councilor 1972, J-5 1973, and JA-1 1974 & 1975

[Robert Vaughan]

Hi Everybody,

These have been some very informative posts (thanks, Dave, Dave, and Mike) about Wyanoke and its closing. I was one of the group (Pat Freeland, Mike Freeland, Tom Falcon, others?) who made a trip down to NJ and Pennsylvania to try to come up with financial support to keep Wyanoke going in January of 1976. I feel like the asking price was somewhat higher than the final sale price but still well beyond any of our means at the time.

I haven't been back to Wyanoke in many years but am happy that there was respectful development of the property. I saw it early on in its new development sometime around 1980 or perhaps at your Dad's funeral, Dave. Having lived at Wyanoke since I was 3 months old essentially until it closed when I was 27, I could walk the property at night without a flashlight, it was so familiar.

I was interested to hear that the airport was closed. Pat Freeland and I had a little adventure one time in 1975 flying down to buy ammo in Hooksett, landing at an abandoned airport just across the river, bumming a ride to buy the ammo at Reilly's Sport Shop, and then taking off with too heavy a load because of the concentrated weight of the 5000 rounds and needing to dip down into the Merrimack River valley to get up airspeed so as not to hit the hill at the end of the runway, and finally, because of sun hitting the cracks of the windshield upon approach at Lakes Region, not being able to see the runway until we touched down. You may recall the pile of rocks you had to go over just before touchdown. In any case, we're all here to tell the tale and the Wolfeboro Inn helped us calm our nerves that evening.

I do appreciate the work that you have done, Mike, in keeping up this site. At some point when I get a scanner or digital camera, I'll try to something with my photos from the past which are numerous.

Happy New Year and isn't this a great day for America!

Bob Vaughan